This news is just to cool to hold back. We all thought Smashing Pumpkins existed from 1988 till 2000, and then disbanded, right? Wrong. The earliest known recording under the Pumpkins flag is from December 1987, as confirmed by Billy Corgan himself! Just follow the next clues:

Demotape Gish/Moon with Dec. 1987 recorded I Fall
=================================================
http://www.spfreaks.com/?page=COLLDETAILS&item=547

The track I Fall on this tape is with Billy Corgan, James Iha and a drummachine. Though Ron Roesing (ex-The Marked) was around to play drums here and there (see for example the updated information on the Nothing Ever Changes tape http://www.spfreaks.com/?page=COLLDETAILS&item=502 ) he didn't play the drums on this track. And while James Iha was still playing in his band Snake Train, he also played and recorded with Billy Corgan. Billy Corgan confirmed to 2 of our sources that this I Fall track was recorded in the basement of his father's house in December 1987.

So we had to update the early history likewise, based on this and other information.

1987
http://www.spfreaks.com/?page=TOURHISTORY&year=1987

1988
http://www.spfreaks.com/?page=TOURHISTORY&year=1988

By clicking on dates marked with a * (star) you can see the known tracks per venue/studio. As a service to you researchers we will also mention the minutes/seconds per individual track. When you click on the track itself you will be going to a page with info about this track and where it was released (if available). Clicking on this release will give you all the info about this release. Have fun!

Again very pleased to bring you this cool news,
Arthur

PS1 We are working on 1989 and 1990 still, so not all info is available there yet.
PS2 I Fall has not and will not be leaked. Our source promised this to Billy Corgan in person.

Ummmmmm........ I have "I Fall." One is from something called Billy's Father's Home Studio and a live one is from Live at the Avalon 8-10-88.

I'm not trying to be mean, but your information is completely wrong.

1. "I Fall" (demo and live) has been circulating for a couple of years now. Billy leaked the live recording himself, so it's funny that you promised him you won't leak the song. The home demo is available on this very site: http://www.thepumpkins.net/music/music_-_ignoffo_tape.html

2. You say your recording of "I Fall" is a better/alternate recording, and that it's found on the Gish/Moon Tape tape. However, that tape is precisely the source of "I Fall" that has been circulating for years. I suspect your "better" version is from the same tape, but better sound quality than whatever you previously had. That doesn't mean it's anything new.

3. Your site says: "This tape includes 2 filler songs from the band's early days which hadn't been commercially released until now." ...but these aren't commercial releases. Your site also lists a "concert" at Billy's dad's house in 1987.

4. Billy stated years ago (Machina listening party, Dec. 1999) that "I Fall" was a demo that James and he recorded at his dad's house in 1987 - yet you make it sound like groundbreaking news when you post about it.

5. Your site says: "Those tracks are a (home-)studio version of "I Fall" (note the early date!) and a live version of "Time Has Come Today" from the Last Exit, Chicago gig on 1988/11/20. Technically we can say The Smashing Pumpkins exists since 1987 by the discovery of this tape." ...okay - this argument is nonsense. Just look at the Marked songs on "25 Songs O' Pumpkins" or "Hope" on Pisces+Friends/Still Becoming Apart. Billy also put pre-Marked songs on his Marked demo tapes. "Jazzin'" may or may not be a Starchildren song. The point is, just because it's on a SP tape, that doesn't mean it's SP. Billy remembers so many details about the old days that I don't see any reason to doubt him when he says the band started in 1988. I also believe him when he says "I Fall" was recorded in 1987. So this means:

1987 home demo of "I Fall" = not the pumpkins
1988 live performances of "I Fall" = the pumpkins

It's sort of like how Spiteface and Sun were both Marked songs originally, but the Pumpkins adopted them in 1988.

Smiley link=topic=1896.msg31272#msg31272 date=1185809052]
1987 home demo of "I Fall" = not the pumpkins
1988 live performances of "I Fall" = the pumpkins

It's sort of like how Spiteface and Sun were both Marked songs originally, but the Pumpkins adopted them in 1988.


You sir, are correct.

Smiley link=topic=1896.msg31272#msg31272 date=1185809052]
I'm not trying to be mean, but your information is completely wrong.

1.  "I Fall" (demo and live) has been circulating for a couple of years now.  Billy leaked the live recording himself, so it's funny that you promised him you won't leak the song.  The home demo is available on this very site: http://www.thepumpkins.net/music/music_-_ignoffo_tape.html

2.  You say your recording of "I Fall" is a better/alternate recording, and that it's found on the Gish/Moon Tape tape.  However, that tape is precisely the source of "I Fall" that has been circulating for years.  I suspect your "better" version is from the same tape, but better sound quality than whatever you previously had.  That doesn't mean it's anything new.

3.  Your site says:  "This tape includes 2 filler songs from the band's early days which hadn't been commercially released until now." ...but these aren't commercial releases.  Your site also lists a "concert" at Billy's dad's house in 1987.

4. Billy stated years ago (Machina listening party, Dec. 1999) that "I Fall" was a demo that James and he recorded at his dad's house in 1987 - yet you make it sound like groundbreaking news when you post about it.

5.  Your site says:  "Those tracks are a (home-)studio version of "I Fall" (note the early date!) and a live version of "Time Has Come Today" from the Last Exit, Chicago gig on 1988/11/20. Technically we can say The Smashing Pumpkins exists since 1987 by the discovery of this tape."  ...okay - this argument is nonsense.  Just look at the Marked songs on "25 Songs O' Pumpkins" or "Hope" on Pisces+Friends/Still Becoming Apart.  Billy also put pre-Marked songs on his Marked demo tapes.  "Jazzin'" may or may not be a Starchildren song.  The point is, just because it's on a SP tape, that doesn't mean it's SP.  Billy remembers so many details about the old days that I don't see any reason to doubt him when he says the band started in 1988.  I also believe him when he says "I Fall" was recorded in 1987.  So this means:

1987 home demo of "I Fall" = not the pumpkins
1988 live performances of "I Fall" = the pumpkins

It's sort of like how Spiteface and Sun were both Marked songs originally, but the Pumpkins adopted them in 1988.

You have given it a good try to set up a critical story, Smiley! Cool! The only thing I could find however that is "wrong information" is that all the studio recordings are now in the Tour History section. This is for 2 reasons at the moment:

-Our sources need to compare the older dates in a historical timeframe with the concerts, so we put the recording sessions there for the moment. Later on we will move this to an extra section Recording Sessions. For the moment it looks "wrong" yes, sorry for that.
-Our website is always in progress. Sometimes we forget to change headers, titles, columns, fields, dates etc. We have to keep track of a lot of information, compare tons of things, discuss it with our teammembers, answer emails and so on. Little mistakes can be made. Please forgive us.

Your point 1. Correct, those 2 versions are circulating. I never denied that. This 3rd version of I Fall however is not wanted by Billy Corgan to circulate, so our source respects that. Nothing wrong here.

Your point 2. Just a matter of opinion. For example Kitty Kat exists in a Distorted version and a Non-Distorted version. Kitty Kat is not a new song indeed, but a remixed, a polished up, newly mastered or even an edited version is however called a "new" track. All collectors of new SP tracks and hardcore fans will agree with that. Nothing wrong here.

Your point 3. So you agree they haven't been commercially released till now, as you state. Nothing wrong here. The "concert" thingy is already discussed above. Again, sorry for the confusion caused at the moment.

Your points 4&5. Might be true, yet it is news not known to many people. You cannot deny that. I see it from this point of view. Technically when Billy and James record a song called I Fall, a song without any historical background to other bands (Snake Train, The Marked, Hexen, & also no old bandmembers involved) and later on even perform that song under the name Smashing Pumpkins with the same people that recorded it, and put it (the Dec. '87 recording) on a tape with the name Smashing Pumpkins on it, then it is a full Pumpkins song, agree? It cannot in any way be compared to Spiteface and Sun, which are indeed older tunes from The Marked, adopted and renewed by the early Pumpkins. Sorry, but I cannot follow you there when you make this comparison anyway.

To cut a kinda long story short: it might be said by Billy Corgan the Pumpkins started in 1988, because the name comes from that year. But TECHNICALLY and technically alone the Smashing Pumpkins exists since Dec. 1987. At least! No other website I know lists something about this year 1987. Or it must be in the dark alleys of it somewhere. It's even worse, everywhere you will find lies like "1988 Billy Corgan meets James Iha through a friend" (see for example this Virgin press release that was send to me today: http://www.spfreaks.com/?page=IMGVIEW&item=5407 ). It's just not true, they knew each other already in 1987! And I think SPfreaks has the full right to blow a little horn about this. And we provide NO wrong information in this matter. Even though you gave it good try.

I realize now that some confusion might be caused by the not-to-be-leaked I Fall version number 3. Maybe Smiley (and others) didn't read our board completely, so let me post here the crucial part about that:

"Cool As Ice Cream wrote:
you're not confusing it with the live recording from the avalon show, are you?

Certainly not. This is definately the studioversion! We could say it is version 3 of I Fall, as version 1 and 2 are the Avalon (thank you!-squeek) live version and the version you just linked. This 3rd version was given to Billy Corgan and he listened and said it's indeed a better version of the one on the Gish/Moon tape. At the same time he said to 2 persons (including the "owner" of I Fall 3) that it was recorded in December 1987. Also he asked not to leak it. Which the "owner" is respecting of course. The main news here is actually that we have to set the startdate of the Pumpkins back to at least December 1987!"

Hopefully this clears things up a bit about that part... Meanwhile I'm eagerly awaiting your further opinions why we should or shouldn't call it Smashing Pumpkins way back in 1987. Interesting!

SPfreaks link=topic=1896.msg31307#msg31307 date=1185841774]But TECHNICALLY and technically alone the Smashing Pumpkins exists since Dec. 1987. At least!

Based on what? You haven't proven anything. The only thing established is that James and Billy recorded a song in 1987, and then in 1988 they played it when they started calling themselves The Smashing Pumpkins. It also wound up on a tape in 1989. None of this means the band started in 1987. I consider the band beginning to be when they started calling themselves the Pumpkins - don't you?

SPfreaks link=topic=1896.msg31307#msg31307 date=1185841774]No other website I know lists something about this year 1987.

Exactly - no other website says it because it isn't true. At least, not according to what Billy Corgan has been saying for 15+ years.

SPfreaks link=topic=1896.msg31307#msg31307 date=1185841774]Meanwhile I'm eagerly awaiting your further opinions why we should or shouldn't call it Smashing Pumpkins way back in 1987.

Basically, I don't think we should call it SP because Billy didn't (and doesn't) call it SP. He calls the band from 1988-present "The Smashing Pumpkins". He calls 1987 "James and I recorded this at my dad's house". Trust the Billy!

Just to point out something regarding this 3rd version of "I Fall": you say that you are respecting Billy's wishes by not releasing it, but doesn't the fact that Billy did release it (via this tape) back in 1988, mean that he did and does in fact intend for it to be available? In other words, it has already been released, but is now being kept hidden by the current owner of the tape, since the magic of the free sharing internet didn't exist back in 1988.

Smiley link=topic=1896.msg31311#msg31311 date=1185852126]Based on what? You haven't proven anything. The only thing established is that James and Billy recorded a song in 1987, and then in 1988 they played it when they started calling themselves The Smashing Pumpkins. It also wound up on a tape in 1989. None of this means the band started in 1987. I consider the band beginning to be when they started calling themselves the Pumpkins - don't you?

Yup, I agree on that. Let's put it like this then. The Smashing Pumpkins name is from 1988, the roots however date back from 1987 with a song that can be called "done by Smashing Pumpkins-members alone". Spiteface and Sun have a different history that dates back to 1986 and is connected to The Marked.

Smiley link=topic=1896.msg31311#msg31311 date=1185852126]
Exactly - no other website says it because it isn't true. At least, not according to what Billy Corgan has been saying for 15+ years.

Most websites recognize the The Marked songs from even before 1987 playing a role in the history of the Pumpkins. None however is mentioning this I Fall playing a role, while I think it plays a very important role.

Smiley link=topic=1896.msg31311#msg31311 date=1185852126]
Basically, I don't think we should call it SP because Billy didn't (and doesn't) call it SP. He calls the band from 1988-present "The Smashing Pumpkins". He calls 1987 "James and I recorded this at my dad's house". Trust the Billy!

Hahaha, I do trust Billy very much, no doubt about that. That's why I call it "technically" they exist since Dec. '87.

btw I found a rockumentary on my pc which I copied from somewhere 4 years ago (I think from SPFC.org, but can't check now as it is still down )with a clue to 1987.

"1987
Billy befriended a Japanese-American, James Iha. James had grown up in a suburban environment where he "learned to deal early on with being a minority, being called names." He had average grades in high school, attended a junior college where he received high grades, and continued his education with Graphic Arts major at Loyola University. He also took courses in theology, psychology, and "all these other things that didn't related to art. But it was good." He later dropped out to spend time working with the band. Their similar influences and interests caused both of them to collaborate and form a band. James was playing with a band called Snake Train for the first few months with the Pumpkins."

No mentioning of the recording of I Fall however. Who recognizes this piece of work?

If I may interject ...

"Hope" was a Marked song?

From the Pisces Iscariot + Friends text file:
Hope seems to be a pre-Pumpkins track, very likely recorded by Billy in 1986.

So, if your theory holds true then your saying the the Pumpkins existed even in 1986. Which is still incorrect.

PistolPete link=topic=1896.msg31358#msg31358 date=1185932681]
From the Pisces Iscariot + Friends text file:
Hope seems to be a pre-Pumpkins track, very likely recorded by Billy in 1986.

So, if your theory holds true then your saying the the Pumpkins existed even in 1986. Which is still incorrect.
Indeed, very true, and I wouldn't go that far also. Billy solo is Billy solo (otherwise TheFutureEmbrace would be a SP album also, which is uhmmm.. silly). Less silly, and making lots of sense I still think, is giving I Fall from 1987 a decent place in the Pumpkins history. As I said, it is a full Pumpkins song. Recorded by 2 Pumpkins members, no other old bandmembers involved, played by the Smashing Pumpkins while they called themselves like that, and the December 1987 recording on a cassette with the name Smashing Pumpkins on it. Altogether I still humbly think every serious biography/discography should put the I Fall recording and the year 1987 in the Pumpkins history. At least SPfreaks is going to do that from now on.

What I imagine is that Billy is planning to release this "I Fall Version 3" with the set of Pre Gish demos in the coming year.

Is there any chance, SPfreaks, that you could release something like a ten second clip of this tune, just for the sake of comparison? That would be splendid indeed to hear, since I am very curious.

So Hmm....

I'm in the process of listening to this supposed "new version" of I Fall that's up on the Pumpkins' MySpace profile, and I can't really see how it's different than the other, except that it's in stereo.

It's far better in stereo, of course, since the other version/other songs were taken from the tape in mono format (unfortunately...)

http://www.myspace.com/smashingpumpkins

What do you think?