and i'll agree with the person (ringer7) who agreed on the agreements of two previous people

thats right he did invite them back and they didnt want to be apart of it .... but hey they may have had plans of their own (i know james did) but d'arcy im unsure about having plans...

does anyone know if she actually did respond?

The thing about it is that Jeff and Ginger were not introduced on stage or addressed by name for the longest time for this tour. I think the first time was during one of the Ashville residency shows, where Billy is trying to encourage Jeff to let loose, and he mentions something about James and his antics on stage. Maybe I am wrong since I haven't heard all the live shows, but I think it was to emphasize what he wants us to believe, that SP is back, and it does not matter who is involved.

As for the 97% comment from the Zeitgeist DVD, I think that is true to a point. The point being that Billy notoriously would go back and rework a song by adding tons of guitar tracks and overdubs. I think it was either Ruby or Soma that had something like 38 guitar tracks. In the scheme of things, Billy did 97% of the work in that regard. James probably laid down 1 guitar track down, and then left the song up to Billy's workaholicism.

There are times on Zeitgeist where you can't tell that James and D'arcy aren't there, and there is times when you can. As I think many people have said (including myself frequently), part of SP was the dynamic between the four of them.

Of course, Billy and Jimmy have proven more than capable of putting together a pretty good record that I can honestly say is The Smashing Pumpkins, but different as it always has been.

Actually Willy didn't invite James and D'arcy back.

Alot of people wanted antother album from Billy - I would have loved another TFE. Me personally - I don't consider Billy and anything he does to be the pumpkins because the pumpkins is a band - Billy is a person. THat's why when he did TFE it was a SOLO ALBUM not a Pumpkins album. For him to try and pull this name flip just to gain more excitememnt and attention for his music I just think was pretty savvy buisness work. All in all there are many people who will just go along with whatever Billy says even when he makes his own bed he doesn't have to lay in it. IS everything Billy does "SP"??? Is Zwan the pumpkins??? If you ask Billy Zwan was a major mistake and he wishes it never happened so are we to say "Zwan was the Pumpkins"???

ok, it's a matter of opinion and in the end my opinion is "Have a little Class." At least when half the members of guns n roses decided to replace axl they chose a new name for the project. Why live off the popularity of your old music why not try and create a new legacy? (I'm personally glad we have Velvet Revolver instead of a Guns n Roses feat. Scott Weiland.) I guess Billy felt that SP fans wouldnt support anything he did unless it was called SP and maybe he was right...I mean imagine how many copies TFE or Zwan would have sold if it was dubbed the NEW SP ALBUM. I think that's why this album sounds dull and rushed...maybe after all this time trying to be creative Billy finally figured out that quality of music is not the deciding factor on the success of his projects.

Whether or not Billy and Jimmy invited James and D'arcy back or not is up to debate. Because James claimed around the time of the tour that he was never approached, but Jimmy had claimed months earlier that they did try to reach out to at least James.

So Jimmy and James are contradicting each other. What is the real truth? We don't really know I don't think.

But anyways, Zwan was a completely different mind set than SP, so I don't think Billy would have even attempted to call it that. Same with TheFutureEmbrace for the most part. One of the only hints of SP on TheFutureEmbrace was DIA, which not surprisingly featured Jimmy, and Billy had apparently gone back to his old style of songwriting for that song. He had apparently cultivated a different approach for most of TheFutureEmbrace songs.

Will this topic never end

An open post to Believe:
Let’s take the Pumpkins out of the equation and look at this argument from a different angle.

What do you say about bands that have an open door policy for its members? For instance, A Perfect Circle…putting aside the fact that this was a side project.
Mer de Noms
Maynard James Keenan
Billy Howerdel
Josh Freese
Paz Lenchantin
Troy Van Leeuwen

Thirteenth Step
Maynard James Keenan
Billy Howerdel
Josh Freese
Jordie White
Troy Van Leeuwen

Touring musicians and misc
James Iha
Tim Alexander
Danny Lohner
As it seems you’re suggesting, they should have changed their name for their second album since it didn’t contain all the original members. You made and argument earlier that Jeff and Ginger didn’t play a single note on Zeitgeist. Well don’t forget that Iha didn’t play a single note on the Thirteenth Step, but was still considered a “stable member” of the band. Point being, A Perfect Circle is known to be controlled by two creative forces, much like the Pumpkins, but is still in every since of the word considered to be band.

Trent Reznor, or Nine Inch Nails however you look at it, has changed their lineup on every tour. Not necessarily because of problems within the band but because it gives a new perspective to the songs and prevents the creative environment from becoming stale. Playing Hurt at the end of every set since 1994 has got to get old. Plus it’s understood that NIN live is a complete separate entity from NIN in the studio.


Bands change members all the time and no one seems to care/notice.
Foo Fighters
Metallica
Nirvana for Christ sake…they even had another guitarist for touring purposes!

We seem to hold the Pumpkins to a higher standard and put them up on a pedestal, but it’s time to bring them down a few notches and realize that it’s just music. Let them (the Pumpkins) create music in whatever environment/lineup/label they feel comfortable in.
Sorry to single you out, and no offense intended, but you seem to be the most vocal on this issue.

I see I'm the poster boy for alot of other people who feel the same as me (Even though I'm never the one that starts these threads!) I think that people like me just get so tired of being told to shut up about the way we feel that we dont even bother posting here. That said I have no ides what the point of your post was. James playing on some stuff with a perfect circle isn't even in the same universe as what he meant to the Pumpkins. SP started with Billy and James - not Billy and Jimmy. Furthermore I've never even heard of Thirteenth step and I had never heard a perfect circle's music until James became involved. None of those bands were ever as successful as SP so who cares??? And dont tell me its not a big deal to replace people, if it wasn't a big deal why keep it a BIG SECRET??? Why not just come out and say who's in or out? Why keep your fans guessing "is Iha there or isnt he" just to present them later with "JEFF"???? Since we're talking other bands...what other bands have pulled that kind of circus when replacing members?

Point of my post was to show that other bands vary their lineups from studio to live settings. Sorry, I went a little overboard and the message was lost somewhere between my brain and the keyboard.

I don’t think it was intentional for Billy and Jimmy to lead us on about who’s in the band. Because I think up until the Grand Rex show, they weren’t too sure themselves. If I remember correctly Jeff and Ginger only got the call 6 weeks before the show, and by that time we all already knew about it anyway.

I vow to never post on this topic again. The pointless arguments on both sides never seem to go anywhere but in a complete contradictory circle.

lol.

haha, replying to guns and roses being without axl, velvet revolver sucks. and there probably isn't any point arguing this topic anymore.

its sad it cant be what it once was. im happy billy has reformed part of the band under the name of the pumpkins, cos it means ill be able to see him play SP songs live. i saw him for TFE and it was amazing. so, as unhappy as i am wih the new album im just glad ill hear billy live again. its not something u take for granted here.

i think we should just appreciate what great music this band has brought out in the past and be greatful that we'll get to hear some of it again.

So, does this mean I win the argument??

Just Say i Win...PLEEEEAAASSSEEEEE!!!!

Believe wrote:
So, does this mean I win the argument??

Just Say i Win...PLEEEEAAASSSEEEEE!!!!

no, that just means that everybody else is tired of talking in circles.

ghostchild wrote:
Believe wrote:
So, does this mean I win the argument??

Just Say i Win...PLEEEEAAASSSEEEEE!!!!

no, that just means that everybody else is tired of talking in circles.
Ditto. I knew what kind of arguments this thread was likely to stir up again, so I didn't even bother to state my opinion. New Pumpkins good, old Pumpkins good, it's all good - whether it be James, D'arcy, Jeff, or Ginger. So long as it's fronted by Billy and performed in the spirit of the Pumpkins, it's genuine Pumpkins music in my book.

I'm sorry Believe, but there's no argument to win.

Everyone has their own tastes and personal preferences. Mine happen to be those of a fan. The fact that your's are not doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to share them, no, but do it elsewhere. There are entire forums (Netphoria) designed for disgruntled Pumpkins fans. Post a video on Youtube of a copy of Zeitgeist being smashed with a hammer, or something. I mean, your opinion's valid, but on a forum meant for appreciation of the Pumpkins, and not their constant deprecation, opinions like your's can get more than a little tiresome.

Then again, I can't speak for everyone. This is my 5 cents, anyways. My first post on this thread shall also be my last.

Netphoria. To me it's all the angry Pumpkins fans united.

Jeffrey Zeitgeist wrote:
ghostchild wrote:
Believe wrote:
So, does this mean I win the argument??

Just Say i Win...PLEEEEAAASSSEEEEE!!!!

no, that just means that everybody else is tired of talking in circles.
Ditto. I knew what kind of arguments this thread was likely to stir up again, so I didn't even bother to state my opinion. New Pumpkins good, old Pumpkins good, it's all good - whether it be James, D'arcy, Jeff, or Ginger. So long as it's fronted by Billy and performed in the spirit of the Pumpkins, it's genuine Pumpkins music in my book.

I'm sorry Believe, but there's no argument to win.

Everyone has their own tastes and personal preferences. Mine happen to be those of a fan. The fact that your's are not doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to share them, no, but do it elsewhere. There are entire forums (Netphoria) designed for disgruntled Pumpkins fans. Post a video on Youtube of a copy of Zeitgeist being smashed with a hammer, or something. I mean, your opinion's valid, but on a forum meant for appreciation of the Pumpkins, and not their constant deprecation, opinions like your's can get more than a little tiresome.

Then again, I can't speak for everyone. This is my 5 cents, anyways. My first post on this thread shall also be my last.

whoa whoa whoa...see u start out great and yeah this argument IS going to only ever cirle, which is why i was pretty whatever when i posted, but if we cant have valid opinions against what billys doing these days posted here, even if theyre not all palitable to everyone then its not a discussion board. he's not posting vids of zeitgeist defacement, and this isnt a site for the new SP only so let the man have his opinion and have it HERE. cos thats what this place is for. opinion not censorship! and netphoria wasnt designed for disgruntled fans thats just ridiculous!! lol

just because he (and i for that matter) dont like the new album doesnt mean you can discount past and present appreciation for their work that we have and still remain to contribute! this is not the board for the new smashing pumpkins! its just a board for the pumpkins full stop! i think you need to get off your high horse buddy!!

Ruby wrote:
Jeffrey Zeitgeist wrote:
ghostchild wrote:
Believe wrote:
So, does this mean I win the argument??

Just Say i Win...PLEEEEAAASSSEEEEE!!!!

no, that just means that everybody else is tired of talking in circles.
Ditto. I knew what kind of arguments this thread was likely to stir up again, so I didn't even bother to state my opinion. New Pumpkins good, old Pumpkins good, it's all good - whether it be James, D'arcy, Jeff, or Ginger. So long as it's fronted by Billy and performed in the spirit of the Pumpkins, it's genuine Pumpkins music in my book.

I'm sorry Believe, but there's no argument to win.

Everyone has their own tastes and personal preferences. Mine happen to be those of a fan. The fact that your's