I'm not sure if I'll be able to properly put this into words to convey my thoughts but here goes...

Does anybody else get the sense that Billy and Jimmy are kind of going in different directions from one another right now?

I'm not referring to the dynamic between the two of them or their relationship with each other...that seems stronger than ever right now.

But as far as pushing the envelope with their playing...pushing themselves to be uniqe...pushing themselves to make the band better, etc.......?

Like Zeitgeist or not, you have to admit things like United States, the live performances of Gossamer, the drumming on Superchrist, and some of the other drumming going on right now is world class top notch phenomenal. Can the same be said for Billy right now?

Put it this way...I get the feeling that Jimmy is playing drums better than he ever has before. I do not get the feeling that Billy is playing guitar, singing, or writing songs better than he ever has before.

....and discuss.

agreed, i think the zeitgeist drumming is jimmy's best, the songs are great too, but i'd have to say billy doesn't seem to be as driven.

Well, I think the difference is that Jimmy is convincing, and Billy isn't.

IMO no (for the most part) I am absolutly loving a lot of the new tracks, Doomsday clock,United States, Bring the Light, Pomp and Circumstances, The Rose March and the MP3 of Gossamer live from this very web site to name but a few. In fact anyone who wants to see how amazing SP2 (if you want to put put it like that) can be live should just you tube that whole rock am ring performance.

There have have been negitives, A prime example is the video for Super Christ first the version of the song (boring IMO) and no Ginger or Jeff (are they a band or what) - but I digress just to make a direct example.

Ive heard mention of people saying Billys voice is getting very monitone (another thread) these days and I think and can see where there coming from and yes for god and country on the record you can hear this(im not to keen on that one-however I have come to like like the music a little more)but over all I think Billy is singing better than ever.

Over all IMO I think this is good second start and things are going to get even better.

These days, I'm not sure if Billy deserves Jimmy's talent! Live, sure, the band is still mega-rocking and captivating, but Jimmy's drumming is probably the only blatantly great thing on the album.

The thing with Jimmy is that he has done a complete 180 in the past decade. He cleaned himself up, became a family man, and is obviously grateful for every day he is alive. He seems completely gracious of the fans and the opportunity to do what he loves as a profession. Whereas Billy (as always) remains contentious with the fans, and unless 100% consensus is reached on the amazingness that is Corgan (rolls eyes,) he will be dissatisfied. So, I'm interpreting this as Billy thinking, "FINE! You guys don't like anything I do, so I'm just not going to try to please you anymore."

Hence, the SuperCrap video.

(I don't think it's Billy's - or any artist's - duty to constantly please the fans, but seriously, man, at least we're DISCUSSING your art still.)

TBH, im beginning to think that the Superchrist video was supposed to be really bad...

I think your thoughts are right... and now thinking of your thoughts... I guess that's a big part of the reason, why I don't like Zeitgeist that much.

Let me put it this way: Billy put so much in every record. I mean, if you like them or not, every record was so different, driven, perfectly arranged and over the top. Zeitgeist is from billy's point of view not that driven (like trillian said).

jimmie changed, grew older, left his drug-addiction behind and became a family man. I'm sure Billy just has his guitar. That's it. And he has this part of self-destruction in himself.

So it could be that they're following different paths. They love each other, that's for sure.

I guess a new pumpkins record would show more. They should really do something new because it's so hard to discuss Zeitgeist and what the band (or just the two of them) will be in the next years.

What I really miss is Billy's creativity. If you compare Zeitgeist with the older records (I assume you have to do that) you see, what I mean.

And it's not that Billy has to please the fans (like Trillian said) but he could me more driven in the new stuff. I mean... otherwise he could break up the band forever and get a fucking job.

That's probably the big thing that sets apart Z from all the previous albums... His creativity...

What I think would be an interesting dynamic would be to have both Roy Thomas Baker (who BC and JC seem to love now) and Flood (who seemed to influence them on the multiple versions of songs front) to both help produce the next album with Billy and Jimmy.

Feedbackcurrent wrote:
IMO no (for the most part) I am absolutly loving a lot of the new tracks, Doomsday clock,United States, Bring the Light, Pomp and Circumstances, The Rose March and the MP3 of Gossamer live from this very web site to name but a few. In fact anyone who wants to see how amazing SP2 (if you want to put put it like that) can be live should just you tube that whole rock am ring performance.

There have have been negitives, A prime example is the video for Super Christ first the version of the song (boring IMO) and no Ginger or Jeff (are they a band or what) - but I digress just to make a direct example.

Ive heard mention of people saying Billys voice is getting very monitone (another thread) these days and I think and can see where there coming from and yes for god and country on the record you can hear this(im not to keen on that one-however I have come to like like the music a little more)but over all I think Billy is singing better than ever.

Over all IMO I think this is good second start and things are going to get even better.

I think you'r confusing my point a little bit. I don't disagree that LIVE, they are still amazing. I have the entire rock AM ring on DVD, and I saw them at the Asheville residency. They can still rock it harder than just about any band out there.

...but with regards to the new things the band is doing, live shows aside, I just don't get the feeling that the two of them are on the same level. Jimmy seems to get better every day but I don't see that with Billy.

I've been a huge proponent of zeitgeist from day one. It is a good album. In comparison to what else is out there (non SP) right now, I think it's excellent. And I do agree with you that what we got is a good start to what could be great things for the next album. But, as the thread title says, I just feel like Jimmy is pushing the envelope and getting even better than he ever has been before whereas Billy is simply not doing that.

chriswolf wrote:


And it's not that Billy has to please the fans (like Trillian said) but he could me more driven in the new stuff. I mean... otherwise he could break up the band forever and get a fucking job.

Haha, could you imagine Billy holding down any other job though? He's so petulant and myopic I don't think he'd handle answering to authority very well.

Imagine it ...

POCKMARKED YOUNG BURGER JOINT MANAGER (much like the squeaky voiced kid on the Simpsons): Uh, Billy? You know all of our McTasty burgers have to be made the same way. It's the McTasty tradition. (Billy sulks in the corner) You can't put it on a rye bun, then the next on a sesame seed bun, then add onions to the next one, then add a special secret sauce to the next and expect customers to try them all, just because they're called a McTasty. That's kind of a ripoff.

BILLY: I'll do it MY OWN WAY, fascist! And people will buy it, dammit, because I made it! Your gluttonous customers LOVE MY BURGERS, no matter how I make 'em. Heck, you see that McTasty Burger over there? I spit in that one, and the kid still ate it up. BECAUSE I'M JUST THAT GOOD.


Ooops, did that turn into a thinly veiled Zeitgeist slag?

I think Jimmy's drumming still sound's "raw" and as great as he ever was if not better.

As for Billy and his guitar/singing, it sounds plain and robotic. Almost as if rather than making the song creative he's focusing to much on how well it's played.

Like for example, in some songs in previouse albums Billy would just make noise on his guitar at the end which sounded amazing and unique (like X.Y.U). But now, in Zeitgeist every things in perfect sync, in perfect tune, etc.

I think he "tried" to do that X.Y.U. thing in United States.

Fact: If Billy's every note was not scientifically honed and perfectly toned, the fans would complain that he needed to "brush up" a little from so much time off-stage. What's the difference between Jimmy's expert drumming and Billy's expert vocals and guitar? The fans are just being contrary.

The day that Corgan sells his soul to the fans is the day i stop listening. Enough said.

jimmy is a beast his drumming is out of this world i would kill to play like him i enjoy zeitgeist so much cause of his dedicating drum skills he just gets better and better.

Geek N.Z. wrote:
I think he "tried" to do that X.Y.U. thing in United States.

I suppose.
Maybe that's why United States is my favorite Zeitgeist song