robertedge wrote:
logic?? every band moves forward, if your looking for them to play the back to back siamese dream tours you are mistaken.

i cant answer this again. i just cant. i think were all at a stalemate here. im sick of saying the same shit. good luck with your music, man, and im out. peace everyone

but seriously for me, this album was a sign that the pumpkins were back. it wasnt a let down, it was everything i wanted it to be. its hard when people dont get that, but it was understandable that some people would not get it.

these discussions seem to continue and never get boring.

i understand the question about what happened. it depends on how you used to listen to the pumpkins. when you were younger and you started to listen to them at the siamese dream times, you felt in heaven when MCIS came out and you didn't know how to feel when adore was published.

times back then were so different. i mean, the 90ies were really different, okay? times changed and after 9/11 everything changed.

people that got into the pumpkins after their break-up see all these things different. people that are teenager and now listen to zeitgeist see it maybe in the way, i saw it when i was 15 and listened to MCIS...

i don't like zeitgeist because i also think it's lack of creativity. but i don't judge it. maybe the next album will be a lot better. maybe not. i also miss d'arcy and james but HELL, yeah, times change. we can't bring it all back, we can just remember it.

at least it's everyone's own opinion if the return of the pumpkins is good at all and if zeitgeist is a good start...

chriswolf wrote:
these discussions seem to continue and never get boring.

i understand the question about what happened. it depends on how you used to listen to the pumpkins. when you were younger and you started to listen to them at the siamese dream times, you felt in heaven when MCIS came out and you didn't know how to feel when adore was published.

times back then were so different. i mean, the 90ies were really different, okay? times changed and after 9/11 everything changed.

people that got into the pumpkins after their break-up see all these things different. people that are teenager and now listen to zeitgeist see it maybe in the way, i saw it when i was 15 and listened to MCIS...

i don't like zeitgeist because i also think it's lack of creativity. but i don't judge it. maybe the next album will be a lot better. maybe not. i also miss d'arcy and james but HELL, yeah, times change. we can't bring it all back, we can just remember it.

at least it's everyone's own opinion if the return of the pumpkins is good at all and if zeitgeist is a good start...
quite true, i was a mellon collie boy, and everything after that was gold!!

Well, I guess my question to the original question here is why are you assuming that because the smashing pumpkins name was used, the album would go in the same direction as SD? That seems like a pretty assinine assumption to make to me.

Did you expect adore to go in the same direction as MCIS?? If so, why weren't you pissed off when it came out? Did you expect machina to go in the same direction as adore? Why weren't you throwing a fit then?

The name was re-established because and realized that they'd thrown away the best thing they ever had by breaking up the band. Nobody knows for sure, but there are accounts that they at least attempted to contact when they decided to re-form the band. They had made the decision to re-form the band and use the name in advance...so by your logic, when they found out it would only be 2 of the 4 members, they should have changed the name? And have another album come and go and fade away into relative obscurity like Zwan and TFE did? At least people are still talking about Zeitgeist 7 months after it came out.

There's no such thing as bad publicity.

ghostchild wrote:
Did you expect adore to go in the same direction as MCIS?? If so, why weren't you pissed off when it came out? Did you expect machina to go in the same direction as adore? Why weren't you throwing a fit then?

it's not about same directions - i think the point here is that every album had an impact and was full of creativity.

siamese dream was awesome and MCIS had a huge impact on the whole rock-business, it had more "meat" on it and it was full of great songs. adore was also great and different. there's a concept behind that album. it works perfect if you look at it as a "whole album" (you don't even have to compare it with the other pumpkins albums).

there's also a concept behind machina - if people like it or not. i think that zeitgeist has a lack of creativity, concept and even great songs - it's middle-class music the way it's "in" now with all the other alternative bands. it's nothing special.

i guess after a 7-year break-up you can expect something big. the pumpkins always used to expect something big after each album. so maybe some people are confused because they think zeitgeist is lame sauce concerning the lyrics, the melodies and the riffs.

chriswolf wrote:
ghostchild wrote:
Did you expect adore to go in the same direction as MCIS?? If so, why weren't you pissed off when it came out? Did you expect machina to go in the same direction as adore? Why weren't you throwing a fit then?

it's not about same directions - i think the point here is that every album had an impact and was full of creativity.

siamese dream was awesome and MCIS had a huge impact on the whole rock-business, it had more "meat" on it and it was full of great songs. adore was also great and different. there's a concept behind that album. it works perfect if you look at it as a "whole album" (you don't even have to compare it with the other pumpkins albums).

there's also a concept behind machina - if people like it or not. i think that zeitgeist has a lack of creativity, concept and even great songs - it's middle-class music the way it's "in" now with all the other alternative bands. it's nothing special.

i guess after a 7-year break-up you can expect something big. the pumpkins always used to expect something big after each album. so maybe some people are confused because they think zeitgeist is lame sauce concerning the lyrics, the melodies and the riffs.

All good points, but it IS about directions. Read this whole thread.....The original poster here kept asking "why use the SP name if you were going in a totally different direction."

chriswolf wrote:
ghostchild wrote:
Did you expect adore to go in the same direction as MCIS?? If so, why weren't you pissed off when it came out? Did you expect machina to go in the same direction as adore? Why weren't you throwing a fit then?

it's not about same directions - i think the point here is that every album had an impact and was full of creativity.

siamese dream was awesome and MCIS had a huge impact on the whole rock-business, it had more "meat" on it and it was full of great songs. adore was also great and different. there's a concept behind that album. it works perfect if you look at it as a "whole album" (you don't even have to compare it with the other pumpkins albums).

there's also a concept behind machina - if people like it or not. i think that zeitgeist has a lack of creativity, concept and even great songs - it's middle-class music the way it's "in" now with all the other alternative bands. it's nothing special.

i guess after a 7-year break-up you can expect something big. the pumpkins always used to expect something big after each album. so maybe some people are confused because they think zeitgeist is lame sauce concerning the lyrics, the melodies and the riffs.

All good points, but it IS about directions. Read this whole thread.....The original poster here kept asking "why use the SP name if you were going in a totally different direction?"

OK... i'm gonna agree with you on a couple of things. First of all Zeitgeist is not an amazing album, but it was never meant to be; it was just some rocking tunes to get out there so they could tour again and not just pretend to be one of thise reunion tour kind of bands that split again after.

Also, Billy's voice is getting worse, but not before Zeitgeist. It actually happened after, I mean seriously... listen to his vocals on Zeitgeist and then on Superchrist - why he cant seem to pronounce the first consonant of words anymore is beyond me...

However, what you need to understand is this isn't 1993 and SP haven't been a grunge band since 1996. Billy Corgan is too much of an artist to confine himself to one genre of music. Now you say, thats alright but dont call yourself Smashing Pumpkins, but the fact of the matter is, is that The name resembles a lot more than just the musical style; it's the soul and very essence of a band; the energy behind it that gives it real emotion. Billy wanted to return to that essence that he missed from his other bands and recapture what made the pumpkins so special. If you dont understand that, its hard to call yourself a fan at all. Some will say he succeeded and others will say he's still in the process of regaining it. Whatever, you need to trust him to try and show it.

However, if you cant appreciate machina or adore (in my opinion the most incredible expression of art and beauty)than you're hardly an SP fan.. youre just a grunge fan.

Why do you think Machina+Adore were bad???
Are you crazy????

But I agree on your Zeitgeist-opinion: THe entire album, it's marketing and the lyrics are crap!

i love machina and adore, and for that matter, every album. I thought zeitgeist was good, especially in this turbulent new millenium of music where everything seems to suck. It was a hard rock album that no other band has done in a while.

Shame wrote:
First of all Zeitgeist is not an amazing album, but it was never meant to be

God, that's a depressing and inexcusable notion. To PURPOSELY create lazy art? What a waste of studio time. Why would an artist consciously release anything less than amazing in their own eyes? I understand the "Zeitgeist was a re-introduction" mantra, but I cannot agree with you that Billy set out to create something un-amazing. It just turned out that way.

However, if you cant appreciate machina or adore (in my opinion the most incredible expression of art and beauty)than you're hardly an SP fan.. youre just a grunge fan.

1) SP was never grunge. They were unfortunately lumped into that scene because of the timing of Gish's release and the fact that they worked with Butch Vig. Heavy guitars alone does not equate grunge. Wearing ripped jeans and having long hair does not equate grunge. Being on the Singles soundtrack does not have to equate grunge. To call SP "grunge" is just a cop-out.

2) Who are you to dictate what an SP fan is or isn't? Just because someone doesn't like Adore or Machina doesn't make them any less of a fan. That's the beauty of the Pumpkins - their musical library is so vast and varied that there's a type of SP music for everyone. Some like the more mellow jams. Some like the hard-rocking stuff. Some just like the singles. And they're ALL true fans.

ghostchild wrote:


Did you expect adore to go in the same direction as MCIS?? If so, why weren't you pissed off when it came out? Did you expect machina to go in the same direction as adore? Why weren't you throwing a fit then?



you're missing something big here. did they break up before releasing adore? did they reunite after a 7 year hiatis to produce Machina? your not thinking right now, and your making the same stupid points everyone has made, and i cant argue with you because you just arnt seeing what im saying


However, what you need to understand is this isn't 1993 and SP haven't been a grunge band since 1996. Billy Corgan is too much of an artist to confine himself to one genre of music. Now you say, thats alright but dont call yourself Smashing Pumpkins, but the fact of the matter is, is that The name resembles a lot more than just the musical style; it's the soul and very essence of a band; the energy behind it that gives it real emotion. Billy wanted to return to that essence that he missed from his other bands and recapture what made the pumpkins so special. If you dont understand that, its hard to call yourself a fan at all. Some will say he succeeded and others will say he's still in the process of regaining it. Whatever, you need to trust him to try and show it.

this guy is the first person to make a legitimate point for why they kept the band name. this is a good point, but it relies on billy wanting to return to the "true emotion of the band." where is that in Zietgiest? the biggest thing that album lacks is emotion. (then you go off and call me a non-fan because i don't see this non-existant emotion. you were good up until this point, then you became an internet talking head. i can be a fan of a band without being a die hard.)

Trillian wrote:
Shame wrote:
First of all Zeitgeist is not an amazing album, but it was never meant to be

God, that's a depressing and inexcusable notion. To PURPOSELY create lazy art? What a waste of studio time. Why would an artist consciously release anything less than amazing in their own eyes? I understand the "Zeitgeist was a re-introduction" mantra, but I cannot agree with you that Billy set out to create something un-amazing. It just turned out that way.

However, if you cant appreciate machina or adore (in my opinion the most incredible expression of art and beauty)than you're hardly an SP fan.. youre just a grunge fan.

1) SP was never grunge. They were unfortunately lumped into that scene because of the timing of Gish's release and the fact that they worked with Butch Vig. Heavy guitars alone does not equate grunge. Wearing ripped jeans and having long hair does not equate grunge. Being on the Singles soundtrack does not have to equate grunge. To call SP "grunge" is just a cop-out.

2) Who are you to dictate what an SP fan is or isn't? Just because someone doesn't like Adore or Machina doesn't make them any less of a fan. That's the beauty of the Pumpkins - their musical library is so vast and varied that there's a type of SP music for everyone. Some like the more mellow jams. Some like the hard-rocking stuff. Some just like the singles. And they're ALL true fans.
well said.

i think it's crap to say they never wanted to make a good album out of zeitgeist. really. no one would ever do that - and not a guy like billy corgan. okay, maybe he just went with the flow and thought to put paris hilton (listen to his answer on the youtube-ask-a-pumpkin) in the booklet would be THE zeitgeist of today. it's not.

as i said many times: let's wait for the next album.