Excellent way to describe it - this is probably the best review of the album I've seen on this site. I agree whole heartedly that Jeff and Ginger dont seem like anything more than puppets with Biily pulling the strings. I mean honestly - they can't even speak about the album or what it took to create the music because they had nothing to do with it. Also the songs dont sound complete at all - it's almost as if you can tell that half the magic is gone. Billy said that when he did TFE it was all about the music...I think this album is so heavy because he feels that people didnt respect him trying to do his "artsy" thing so I think he just said "fuck i, you want rock - I'll cram it down your throats!" OTherewise I cant see a reason why he wouldnt have more heartfelt material on this project because he's always offered so much up on his previous works. All in all I totally agreewith u - BRING THE REAL SP BACK!!!!!!

Zeitgeist is definately missing something. Go listen to some of the final tour (2000) bootlegs and you'll see what i mean. People say that zeitgeist sounds different because all the albums sound different, but they had a consistenct in the very soul of the work thats just not there any more. I think zeitgeist is good but its still the worst thing billy has done - his solo album was much better, and your right on the whole billy wants to rock and so all his new songs are really heavy but devoid of meaning - superchrist anyone???? im gonna hold my opinions back though until the next album/sound to see if they're really gone or just going through a transistory period.

I couldn't think of a worse way to describe Zeitgiest. Oh wait, yes I can. But still, this is a terrible description.
Neverlost is my favorite song on the album, full of emotion. It's not weak, it's extremely powerful.

People tend to forget that Billeh IS the Smashing Pumpkins. Always has been, always will.

Yeah - But more than that people tend to forget that James Iha and Darcy Wretzky existed. Oh, and that Zwan existed for that matter...so if Billy is the Pumpkins - Zwan is the Pumpkins and TFE was a Pumpkins album and so on and so forth. When will people realize that Billy is Billy?

1. It’s not 1994 anymore. The times have changed and so has Billy (as well as the band). Seriously, how relevant would an album full of teen angst be if it was sung by a 40 year old? Even bands like NIN and Pearl Jam have gone from the self absorbed lyrics of early albums, to relevant issues on a broader musical landscape. As for emotion…it’s still there, sorry if you can’t see that.

2. Each Pumpkins album is meant to have a unique sound, be able to stand on its own, while at the same time exist under the precise sound of THE Smashing Pumpkins. Therefore each album is vastly different. From MCIS to Adore, Machina…yes even to Zwan, TFE and now to Zeitgeist. In Billy’s own words – “You can’t fault a band for trying something new. If they fail you have to say, well at least they’re trying.” I for one don’t want to listen to a bunch of albums that sound exactly the same. Cough…cough…Red Hot Chili Peppers.


3. The original lineup hasn’t been intact since 1996. Sure for a brief moment in 1999, but the cohesiveness of the band never recovered. As we all know, Billy has been the dominate musical contributor over the years. Zeitgeist is, in every way, a Smashing Pumpkins album regardless of what the internet, tabloids, critics or even the fans say.

4. This is not a reunion or a “best of” tour. It’s a tour in support of ZEITGEIST. If you wanted to hear Gish songs, you should’ve gone to the GISH tour. Plus historically (1995-2000), very few Gish songs were even played. Most notably none in 1998.

5. Like I’ve said before…the Pumpkins are damned if they do, damned if they don’t. Be thankful for what you have and give them a little respect. I’m tired of everyone downing them for every move they make. The DVD, the Atlanta shows, Zeitgeist, James and Darcy or whatever the bitch may be at the moment. Get over it! Lay back, put on some music (whether it’s Siamese Dream, Zwan, TFE or Zeitgeist) and just enjoy it. It’s music for Christs sake, not the dead sea scrolls.

6. On a side note. I don’t see how you can compare Neverlost to an MCIS era b-side, or in the same respect, That’s the Way to Machina??

Exactly. Billy has always been the driving and creative force of the Pumpkins. Or anything else he's done. hell, I thought Hole's Celebrity skin was a better Pumpkins album than Adore, lmao! Not to say I didn't like James or D'arcy, cause I did. I loved them, but hey they're not there anymore. Whether because of their own bad attitudes or whatever I don't know, but they're not around now. GET OVER IT, PEOPLE. Lineup changes happen sometimes in bands, sometimes for the worse. But sometimes, like this time, for the better. Now Billy has more dedicated, less booze-and-crack-smoking, and more talented people beside him. God I love the Pumpkins.

I still luv you Believe, my knight in shining armor.

EXACTLY!!! Nobody said they wanted Billy to sing teenie bopper lyrics but Machina wasnt Teenie bopper lyrics it was last years ahead of Shitgeist. Why oh WHy do people take it soooo personal that other people dont like the album??? I mean gosh - if u like it - hey thats your thing...let us have our opinions. THis album is clearly no where near the caliber of material I've come to know the pumpkins for, which leads me to believe that it is mostly money that billy is after and not necessarily honoring the name and the quality we've come to expect from an SP album.

Oh - and I'm sorry but did someone actually have the nerve to say that Jeff and Ginger are better than James and Darcy??? Ummm what proof do you have??? Since u cant use ONE song from zeitgeist to make your point - you find a Ginger Sling single and get back to me on that one...HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Believe is right, Zeitgeist is nowere near the caliber of their other albums. The fact is there are too many Corganite's around who worship Billy even is he farts into the mic - fair enough I love the guy but he has fucked up majorly in the past.
I do like Zeitgeist even if I think its the second to worst Pumpkins album, but thats not to say I care if someone hates it. Everyone has their opinions & Don, in this review, is just stating his.

PistolPete - I agree with every point, this is exactly how I see the whole situation ... but sometimes I think Billy made a mistake as he took this "holy" band-name again ... I mean it was always Billy behinde every song he ever wrote, I never understood people who see SP, Zwan and Billy Corgan as three complete different things ... it's crazy! People say - Ohhh it's not SP without James and Darcy - hey wake up, the band without BC is not Smashing Pumpkins!

To Believe - I can't understand how your mind works ... you always try to find some strange logical reasons why you don't like this album ... hey you search in the wrong place, it's not the album that have a problem, it's you who have a problem with the album.

WHat...What is this philosophy class now? "Its not that the album is bad - it's that your thinking is bad." Look - I dont need someone to tell me why they think I think I don't like something. Something is missing from this album - if you don't hear it, I do. The album is a work of art and if I don't like it, it doesn't mean something is wrong with me...but I understand that that is the only position a "Corganite" can take on this issue. "Something must be wrong with his brain if he doesnt like zeitgeist" Petey, I dont understand how YOUR mind works. THe reasons I dont like the album make perfect sense to me and that's all that matters. My job is not to convince YOU of what is clear to me. Stand by your feelings and RESPECT others. Maybe u dont understand why a Muslim woman would wear a vale to cover her face but that doesn't make her crazy just because you dont understand it.

EXACTLY!!!

Corganite and PROUD. Long live Billy.

I know everyone's entitled to their opinion and if you don't like Zeitgeist or the current SP lineup then that's fine, but this is hardly a Best Of tour. They're playing a pretty big variety of music, even if they aren't playing a lot of Gish. They're playing a lot of early songs, a lot of Zeitgeist songs, a lot of unreleased songs (i.e. Gossamer, Superchrist etc.) as well as songs they wrote during the tour and are even playing songs that they rarely played before they broke up (Translucent, Set the Ray to Jerry etc.) If it was a best of tour all we'd hear is a live set of Rotten Apples with a few other Siamese Dream songs added in there.
That's just what I think anyway about the tour, it's not a tour intended for people to fork out money to hear Today and 1979 and then buy a lot of merchandise.

I thought we were discussing the album...not the tour?

DON mentioned the tour breifly, in response I comented on it in my post. But it's not the main topic here.

But speaking of the tour...does anyone want to see a band consisting of 2 members and 2 session musicians posing? I mean - should I really be excited about Jeff and Ginger?

Yeah sorry it was a little off the main point of the topic, but I still wanted to address it.
Jeff and Ginger are alright, and I'll pay money to see them if they come to my town, even though I would prefer James and D'arcy. But even still I think they've done a pretty good job of filling James and D'arcy's shoes whether they're only temporary or going to be permanent members of the band.

I keep hearing that the new songs are better live...Why??? Is it just the excitement of seeing billy in the flesh that's makes the songs more exciting to hear?

Billy makes everything better.

I take that as a yes then.

tell me whats so great about james iha and darcy besides being original members nothing i was never really big on those two.

Are u people serious??? What's so great about a band if it's not the members??? Fact is, if you even know who the Pumpkins are it's due to the work of James and D'arcy, not Jeff and Ginger. Why do we hate them??? What the hell did they do??? Just because they are on Billy shit list (along with every other musician he's worked with besides Jimmy) Now everyone is thrashing them. Your all traitors...to your own brains!

Tell me what's so great about the Pumpkins without James and D'arcy??? Now instead of a band we have to guys from a band we used to like and 2 touring puppets. LOL

What makes James and D'arcy so great??? They were original members of the best band ever formed...or reformed. I bet when everyone first came to this site they could answer that question with no problem.

I don't hate James and D'arcy, I never did and I don't now. yes, they were the original members of the band and James helped write some early songs and a few that ended up on TAFH. But think about it....what else did they do when they weren't strung out on drugs, chasing girls/guys, and generally NOT showing up to record, leaving it all to Billy? Everyone goes on and on and on and on about him being a taskmaster egomaniac and blah blah blah, did anyone ever stop to think why? When it's work-time, where's everybody at? Did they express an interest in taking part in the creative process? D'arcy's bass playing never seemed to improve the whole duration of the Pumpkins' long career and James basically just fucked off towards the end, contributing goofy stage banter and odd costumes, whereas somebody like Melissa auf der Maur appears to get better and better all the time, plus she has tons of her own ideas and the get up and go to do them. I will never stop liking D'arcy and James because they were the original lineup and I loooooved that dynamic, how they all challenged each other and often hated each other, lol. But don't make them out to be martyrs and sacrifices to Billy's big ego, cause it just ain't so. They're gone, and there's two more young, highly talented and capable musicians for us to ogle and await their input into the wonderful creature we know as the Smashing Pumpkins. Vive le Pumpkins!